Lessons From Civil Resistance With Phoebe Plummer
This episode features a conversation with Just Stop Oil supporter, Phoebe Plummer. It was recorded in March 2023.
Phoebe, a 21-year-old student from London, has been arrested eight times for acts of civil disobedience associated with nonviolent civil resistance group, Just Stop Oil, most notably after having thrown soup on Van Gogh’s Sunflowers at the National Gallery.
Amongst other things, our discussion explores the role of direct action in response to the climate crisis, the urgency of the situation, and what we, as communicators, can learn from groups like Just Stop Oil.
Additional links:
Just Stop Oil’s website
Dickon: Hi, and welcome to Communicating Climate Change, a podcast dedicated to helping you do exactly that. I'm Dickon, and I'll be your host as we dig deep into the best practices and the worst offences, always looking for ways to help you and me improve our abilities to engage, empower, and ultimately activate audiences on climate-related issues. This episode features a conversation with Just Stop Oil supporter Phoebe Plummer. It was recorded in March 2023. Phoebe, a 21-year-old student from London, has been arrested eight times for acts of civil disobedience associated with non-violent civil resistance group Just Stop Oil, most notably after having thrown soup on Van Gogh's Sunflowers at the National Gallery. Amongst other things, our discussion explores the role of direct action in response to the climate crisis, the urgency of the situation, and what we, as communicators, can learn from groups like Just Stop Oil. So, let's get on with it. This is Communicating Climate Change with Phoebe Plummer. For those less familiar with Just Stop Oil, maybe you could give an introduction into what the mission is?
Phoebe Plummer: Just Stop Oil has won no-brainer demand that the UK government immediately halts all new fossil fuel licenses. At the moment, they're plowing ahead with over 100, and this goes against all of the advice and warnings of their very own scientists. This is the same thing that the United Nations is calling for, the International Energy Agency, the IPCC report, which came out last week, the largest global report on the climate crisis, is all calling for an end to all new fossil fuels, to have any chance of avoiding climate catastrophe.
Dickon: I think that's a pretty straightforward introduction. But this is a show about communication and the lessons that listeners can learn in order to improve their outreach on climate-related issues. So I have a super open question, which is, what do you think that we communicators, whether that's science communicators, or perhaps people working even in marketing, or people just having conversations amongst their family and friends, what do you think that we can learn from Just Stop Oil and the way that they, you, have approached communication?
Phoebe Plummer: I think we're reaching a time where we all need to be questioning how much we're doing to tackle the climate crisis, and we all need to be doing more. Because for the last 50 years, climate scientists and activists have been trying to make their voices heard. Since the first COP conference, 26 years ago, we've created more emissions after that point than the entirety of humanity up until that point. Since we’ve known the consequences of burning fossil fuels. We're at code red for humanity. That's the words of the United Nations, not my words. So we're at this point where we all need to be stepping up and doing more. And I think the urgency is really important to convey because it's something that particularly in the wealthy Global North, I think we feel more separated from the urgency of it. But the reality is that in the Global South, people are dying. Children are starving. Families are fleeing their homes. The climate crisis is not a problem of tomorrow. It's happening around the world right now. And it is urgent. And we have such little time left to make changes before we reach full climate breakdown. It was in February 2021 that Sir David King, who's the former chief scientific advisor to multiple UK governments, said that he believed what we did in the next three to four years would determine the future of humanity. That was two years ago. We don't have time for people in the wealthy Global North to start living the effects of the climate crisis. We don't have time for people in the climate crisis because by then it's too late to do anything about it. That's why Just Up Oil takes nonviolent direct action because we've run out of options. At this point, civil resistance is our best and only hope left to get the radical change that we need.
Dickon: So, this is also a show about the ability of communication to catalyze action. And that seems to be something that Just Up Oil do pretty well, I think. I'm interested in what led you personally to, well, finding yourself throwing soup at a Van Gogh.
Phoebe Plummer: Being 21, I've kind of grown up hearing about the climate crisis quite a lot. And for a while, I've kind of done what I felt I could, non-disruptive things. I've made all the individual lifestyle changes I could think of, going vegan, stopping buying clothes firsthand, stopping flying. I tried lots of non-disruptive activism, like I've signed more petitions than I have bones in my body. I've written more letters to my MPs than I can count. And for a while, that kind of placated the sense that I was doing enough. I think that's a really important thing. The sense that I was doing enough. But I think I had a turning point this summer when in the UK, we reached 40 degrees. And as we shattered records for the hottest summer on record, I think something else shattered in me. And it was a belief that I've held for my whole life, which is that surely the grownups had it all under control. And you know, as our headlines were filled with stories of reaching temperatures that they didn't predict that we would see until 2050. I realized quite the opposite was happening, that we were hurtling in the wrong direction. I realized the grownups didn't have it under control. The grownups had sat on the knowledge of the consequences of burning fossil fuels for the last 50 years. The grownups were quite happily signing me and my generation up to a future that's filled with storms, wildfires, droughts, crop failures, famine, and war. And I realized that nobody was coming to save us. The people in Just Stop Oil are ordinary people. Who are taking the incredibly brave step to step up into civil resistance. And all ordinary people at this time have a moral duty to be doing what they can to fight the greatest injustice in human history.
Dickon: Were there any specific kind of publications, documentaries or conversations that maybe had a particular impact on you before that heatwave?
Phoebe Plummer: I think being the person I am, I am, I'm queer, I'm non-binary, but born female. So I always had this kind of perception of myself that if I'd been alive in the 80s, I would have been on the forefront of queer liberation, earlier in civil rights or women's suffrage. And I think the biggest thing that got to me when deciding to take direct action, it isn't about the science behind the climate crisis. It isn't about the fact that the experts and the scientists aren't being listened to. That is true. And it's scary. But it was, it was seeing all this injustice. It's not a scientific problem. What it is, the climate crisis, is a problem of human suffering. You know, millions of people are suffering around the world. And it's all preventable. We have the solutions and we could be implementing them. So looking at all this injustice going around, I just realized that I wasn't the person I thought I was. If I was willing to just sit back and watch all of that. We're looking straight at the biggest existential threat to human life, that I knew that if I wasn't giving my all fighting it, what was I doing?
Dickon: How important is direct action in raising the attention about the climate crisis, and what can it achieve that other acts or forms of communication and engagement can't?
Phoebe Plummer: Like I said, the science has been known for decades. This isn't an intellectual issue, if it was the scientists would have been listened to. We're in this insane world where none of the experts are being listened to. All of these internationally respected bodies, the Secretary General of the United Nations arguably one of the most politically important men in the world has said that we're on a highway to climate hell with our foot still on the accelerator. He said that licensing new fossil fuels is economic and moral madness so if the Secretary General of the United Nations is saying that and it's still not being implemented in policy, you know what hope do we have of running for office and making all these changes. But where people do have power is in civil resistance. We're using tactics that history has proved effective time and time again.
Dickon: Yeah, it's shocking that we find ourselves here.
Phoebe Plummer: I think it's very confronting looking at the the harsh realities of the climate crisis because it is so much easier to view it as this scientific problem, and especially if you are an ordinary person, I'm not a scientist, it's quite easy to then compartmentalise it and go well, it's not my problem. Or you know, the grown-ups, the scientists, they have it under control. But this isn't an intellectual issue because if it was we would already have these solutions implemented, because the solutions are here. We're facing a social problem. And as the effects of the climate crisis only get worse, we're going to see more and more that it is a social problem. You know, when we run out of food in the supermarkets, and you're fighting over the last loaves of bread in Lidl, that is a social problem. There were hundreds of lawyers in the UK that signed a letter to say that they believed we would see the breakdown of law and order at 1.5 degrees of warming. That's a social issue. If you lose your house in a wildfire, as 60 families did this summer, in just two days of 40 degrees, that's a social issue. So, that's why we have social solutions. That's why civil resistance is the answer. Because I can't walk into Parliament and implement policy change so my power is in civil resistance. The way I cope with having this emotional connection to the climate crisis, all of these feelings of fear and rage, and often despair. The only channel for those is civil resistance. That is where my power is, that is where all people's power is.
Dickon: Has it been a comfort not only to be taking direct action, personally, but also to join a community that is doing that? What what part has that played?
Phoebe Plummer: The community in Just Stop Oil is one of the best things about it. They’re my best friends. They are the most brave, beautiful and brilliant people I know. I was in prison last year and when I came out I was subject to an ankle tag, I had to be at home at 7pm every day, which is incredibly harsh, and as a 21 year-old university student, you know it's quite alienating. I spent my university freshers term in prison, and then I came out and was on an ankle tag, but my friends in Just Stop Oil would call me because they knew I'd be a bit sad and lonely. There's this incredible support network. It's a big and often quite scary thing to do taking direct action. But when you're doing it next to these people who are supporting you all the way through, nobody goes into action alone, and nobody leaves feeling unsupported. And I wouldn't have, you know, the bravery and the courage to keep doing this if I didn't have that support around me.
Dickon: It hits me hardest, I think, when you talk about it not being an intellectual exercise or an intellectual problem, because I've come at it from all of these intellectual angles and perhaps dropped the ball on tying myself to something.
Phoebe Plummer: Ever since I read the IPCC report there's been this kind of like hum of anxiety in my ears. It never goes away. Except when I'm taking action. Because it's in that moment that I know I'm not a bystander. I know that I'm not complicit in all of this suffering. Because I couldn't live with myself if I knew I just sat back and watched the destruction of everything I know and love. So, I get this strange sense of peace that washes over me every time I'm locked in a police cell. Which sounds like a strange place to experience a moment of peace, but it comes back to this moral duty that I think everybody has to to look at all this suffering, to look at all of this injustice, and do something. It's a moral duty to be in civil resistance, at the moment it's a moral duty to step up and do more. You know, I don't think I'm in any position to ask somebody to do the exact same things I've done. I've got four crown court cases, I spent a month in prison, I'll probably go back at some point with all those cases. You know, I've made a fair few personal sacrifices to do this, I couldn't ask anybody to do the exact same things I've done but everybody needs to be doing more. Clearly, we haven't done enough. Clearly climate activists for the last 50 years haven't been doing enough. So, it doesn't matter how great a job you think you've been doing, how many individual changes you've made where it's such a critical point. Everybody needs to step up and push themselves more.
Dickon: Yeah, at the end of every podcast I like to kind of share what my biggest takeaways are for the listener and to kind of encourage them to also do that. I think that's going to be one of the biggest takeaways. Just do more. I hear often a lot of people, particularly in communications and particularly in the marketing space obviously because it's so wrapped up with consumption, feel like they don't have applicable skills. But when you start to realise that being able to create platforms, being able to spread messages, being able to be the ones who know how to drive engagement and get people to note a message, that's real power. So everybody's in this. No matter the skillset, no matter the perspective, no matter the ability, like you said we just have to do more.
Phoebe Plummer: Yeah. And you know, just as we we have to listen to the climate science, we're compelled to act on the social science. As we're trying to keep ourselves away from these climate tipping points, which create runaway irreversible harm. We're trying to create instead these social tipping points. That was something that I felt maybe a bit disempowered about because I thought, 'What skill sets do I have to fight this?' But let me promise you, it doesn't take a load of skills to glue yourself to a road, you just need to have a bit of bravery but that's about it. Everybody needs to be stepping up and doing this because there is going to be that point where the government can't ignore us anymore. And we're not going to stop until our demand is met. 999 arrests may not do it, but that 1000th arrest might, you know. Every body on the streets makes a difference.
Dickon: How crucial has traditional media been in spreading the just-a-boil message? Is there a downside to capturing media coverage like I don't know, maybe being misrepresented or misquoted, etc.?
Phoebe Plummer: Well, you know this is another reason that we have to take part in disruptive actions, because otherwise most of the media wouldn't even report on the climate crisis. You know, can you imagine if they reported on it as the crisis that it is, like they did with COVID, making headlines every day? You know, if they had a climate scientist on, every single day, explaining how bad things are going to get, explaining how serious this situation is. Don't you think more people would be out on the streets? You know, what if they routinely reminded people that we do have the solutions ready to implement? You know, we're suffering a cost living crisis, why are there not outraged headlines every day about the fact that renewables are 9 times cheapers, about the fact that we subsidize fossil fuels by 236 million pounds a week while our NHS is failing, while workers are on strike, wheil people are forced to choose between heating and eating. The media does not tell the truth. It does not accurately report on the climate crisis. So, that's why we have to take part in these disruptive actions, to get them to even mention the greatest crisis humanity has ever faced.
Dickon: But I guess also there's an element of owning the narrative as well, right?
Phoebe Plummer: I guess it's a challenge to try to own that narrative because they constantly try and derail us. You know, I think I might scream if I get one more question about why we're using civil resistance when we're using tactics which are backed up by a wealth of history. When I'm asked by female interviewers, 'Why are you using civil resistance?' it's like, you have rights as a result of civil resistance. Pick up a history book. You know that this is how successful movements of social change work. The media is farcical in how they report on us. I was recently in court and the Daily Mail wrote an article about it. There wasn't one message about Just Stop Oil’s demand, but they reported on the colour of my skirt. We're terrified, we're screaming, we're desperate for action, and they're reporting on what we're wearing.
Dickon: Jeez! Since we're talking about civil resistance, I don't know if you've read 'How to Blow Up a Pipeline' by Andreas Malm, but in that book he's positioning the more destructive direct action against the likes of, Extinction Rebellion, and sort of saying, well, the destruction of infrastructure says to governments in this kind this way of thinking, we don't want to deal with those people but then suddenly Extinction Rebellion seem like a more handleable partner when it comes to negotiation. Do you think that you can help drive the overall dialogue about the climate crisis in that way? Probably they're not going to negotiate with you, right? But you might make it more palatable to negotiate with someone else.
Phoebe Plummer: Yeah, in fact I know that we've had this effect. We've done studies which show that we've had a radical flank effect. After our November actions, climbing the gantries on the M25, there was an increase of 1.75 million more people who supported the aims of Friends of the Earth, which is a more moderate climate group. Like I said, I don't expect everybody to take the kind of radical action that I've done. We need to move the whole public. We're not talking about saving the polar bears or stopping using plastic straws anymore, we're talking about climate breakdown, we're talking about societal collapse, we're talking about the end of life as we know it and a catastrophic future for my generation, for the children being born today, and a death sentence for millions in the Global South. Most people are at a point where they're not doing anything, or you know, they're doing their recycling and they think that's enough. I've destroyed fossil fuel infrastructure, I've smashed up petrol stations, and it's the most powerful feeling. Destroying those machines that you know are destroying us, but I don't expect everybody to do that. But we need to shift this whole public conversation because it is so far away from the realities of how catastrophic the future we're facing is.
Dickon: What can Just Up Oil achieve that the big dogs like Greenpeace or Extinction Rebellion maybe can't?
Phoebe Plummer: Well, Extinction Rebellion did achieve a lot. You know, they got the government to declare a climate emergency. They shut down London. They proved in memorable history that civil resistance works. But we saw that that was just a lip service, declaring a climate emergency. We're hurtling in the wrong direction since then. Emissions are still rising. We're still pushing ahead with genocidal fossil fuel licenses. So I think Just Up Oil continues putting pressure on the government, saying we're done with all this talk, talk, talk and no action. And Greenpeace, you know, they did an incredible action a few weeks ago where they climbed on an oil rig. But, I don't think that's very accessible to the general person. Just Up Oil's new tactic for 2023 is using these slow marches around London. There's a very low risk of arrest because at the moment, walking slowly is still legal. They're trying desperately to get that change, but it won't go through the House of Lords. We're still allowed to walk. So, that's a better point for people to come in with a low risk of arrest, whereas climbing an oil rig isn't. In just over a year that Just Up Oil has been using non-violent direct action, we've achieved more than Greenpeace has in a decade. And we are seeing change happening. All major political parties, other than the Conservatives, have adopted our demands. We've seen major banks pledging to stop investing in fossil fuels. Change is happening. And Just Up Oil is one of the driving forces of that change.
Dickon: So, I mean, you just said there’s a lot of talk, talk, talk and not enough action. And this is a podcast about communication, but it’s about communication that specifically intends to drive action. So, I guess one of my questions is, what kind of message would you give to communicators? As kind of spokespeople in our own right, or maybe influencers in our own networks, what would you say to us? What should we be doing?
Phoebe Plummer: Think about how you’re framing the conversation. I think that how urgent action is needed is central to framing the debate on the climate crisis. Like I said, this is happening today and it’s going to keep getting worse while we keep on lacking action. I think the other thing is framing it as what it is, which is fundamentally it’s a problem of suffering and human injustice. It's not really a problem of scientific solutions or technological breakthroughs. It's suffering.
Dickon: The last one then is, what's the biggest mistake you see communicators make when attempting to engage the public on climate change issues?
Phoebe Plummer: I think we're not listening. We're not listening to the scientists and the experts. And we're not listening to the people who are suffering as a result of the climate crisis. We're not listening to the people dying in the Global South. We're not listening to the families who are having to flee their homes. We're not listening to the parents starving themselves so that they can feed their children. We're not listening to the nurses who are striking. Instead, our government is serving the interests of a small number of elites and billionaires. Why are we not listening to the people? Why are we not listening to the suffering and then doing something about it?
Dickon: I don't have any more questions, but I don't know if there's anything else you would like to say?
Phoebe Plummer: I guess, if there's anybody listening, listening to this who feels the same way that I did and have for a while, this utter terror of the future. We're heading towards this anger that it's preventable and our governments are choosing to hurtle us in the wrong direction. And this mourning for the loss of life and the suffering. And despair, often that nothing can be done. If you feel all those things, then you should join Just Stop Oil because that's where the power is. You know, go to a talk, there's talks around the country. If you go to juststopoil.org, there's online talks too. Sign up to go on a slow march. You know, it's not the most radical action. It's low risk of arrest. It's an entry point and it’s doing something because there's power and there's peace in civil resistance.
Dickon: What a way to end it. Hey, thank you so much.
Phoebe Plummer: Thank you so much. It's been really fun to talk to you.
Dickon: I appreciate that. It's been really like, wowza. You give a lot of food for thought, Phoebe. Really, you're doing important work. And I'm grateful for it.
Phoebe Plummer: I've had this a lot, particularly since “the souping”. A lot of people have said that they're, you know, proud of me or they admire my passion. It's a lovely sentiment. But it’s really starting to piss me off, to be honest. Like, I don’t want your pride. I don’t want your admiration. I want action. I want you to look at the same injustice I am and do something too. Because it's almost this, like, putting activists on a pedestal. We're ordinary people. I'm a 21-year-old student. Do you know what I mean? I'm just doing what I can. And everybody has that power within them. I don't need pride or admiration. Just do something too. Then maybe I won't have to do this any longer. Then I can go back to a normal student life. This isn't where I thought I'd be, age 21.
Dickon: That seems pretty fair. Speaking to Phoebe was incredibly motivating and also, no pun intended, arresting. It gave me a lot to think about, and I hope the same is true for you. But what in particular stuck with you from this conversation? What can you take from it and apply to your own practice? For me, it's that this is not an intellectual issue. As discussed, I think I've been guilty of turning it into one, hiding behind books or editing podcasts even. So I'll try to connect myself to the human realities of it a bit more. Maybe that will be reflected in the guests that I choose for future episodes. Maybe it'll manifest in other ways. Let's see. Then there's the urgency of it all, and the need to bring that fact with me into everything that I do. But at the same time, I keep Susi Moser's words from episode one in the back of my head, that ringing the alarm bell louder isn't effective unless there's a concrete action attached to it for people to take. For Phoebe, the action that Just Stop Oil promotes does the trick. But in other contexts and in connection with other communications efforts, other actions might be more appropriate. Either way, alarms require an off switch, otherwise, they just become part of the background noise. Finally, there's the idea that although we might not all be expected to take destructive, direct action in the way that Phoebe has, we can all do more. I'll be looking for opportunities to get out in the streets and demonstrate. Then, connecting that back to the communication theme of all this, I'll talk about it, of course. But how about you? What will you be taking with you into your work? Thanks to Phoebe Plummer for sharing their time with the show. You can find links to Just Stop Oil's website, as well as some other related resources in the show notes. Thanks also to you for listening to Communicating Climate Change. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts, or by subscribing so you never miss out. If you're looking for additional insight from activist perspectives, I can recommend episode two with Mbong Akiy Fokwa Tsafack, Head of Communications at Greenpeace Africa. Remember, each and every episode attempts to add to our toolkit, to help us develop the skills and the determination that we'll need for this epic task. So, be sure to stay tuned for more. For anything else, just head over to communicatingclimatechange.com. Until next time, take care.
