Battling the Negativity Bias With Jacob Simon
This episode features a conversation with Brooklyn-based climate communicator, creator, and independent reporter, Jacob Simon. It was recorded in August 2024.
As the mind behind Jacobsimonsays, a platform telling real stories of progress to replace dread and fear with hope and action, Jacob inspires his audience of well over half a million people across social media and his newsletter, Climativity, to overcome eco-anxiety and get involved with tackling the climate crisis through optimism, community, and action.
Jacobsimonsays has racked up more than 83 million views, over 11 million likes, and maintains a following of more than 700,000 individuals who tune in every day to hear stories about those tackling the climate crisis and learn about simple and impactful actions they can take to protect the environment.
Amongst other things, Jacob and I discussed the trials and tribulations of being a social media influencer, where to draw your line in the sand when it comes to collaborations, and the kinds of content that performs best on climate and environmental topics.
Additional links:
Follow Jacobsimonsays on TikTok
Follow Jacobsimonsays on Instagram
Visit the Jacobsimonsays website
Check out Jacob’s Climativity newsletter
Read Social tipping dynamics for stabilizing Earth’s climate by 2050
Dickon: Hi, and welcome to Communicating Climate Change, a podcast dedicated to helping you do exactly that. I'm Dickon, and I'll be your host as we dig deep into the best practices and the worst offences, always looking for ways to help you, and me, improve our abilities to engage, empower, and ultimately activate audiences on climate-related issues. This episode features a conversation with Brooklyn-based climate communicator, creator, and independent reporter, Jacob Simon. It was recorded in August 2024. As the mind behind Jacobsimonsays, a platform telling real stories of progress to replace dread and fear with hope and action, Jacob inspires his audience of well over half a million people across social media and his newsletter, Climativity, to overcome eco-anxiety and get involved with tackling the climate crisis through optimism, community, and action. Jacobsimonsays has racked up more than 83 million views, over 11 million likes, and maintains a following of more than 700,000 individuals who tune in every day to hear stories about those tackling the climate crisis and to learn about simple and impactful actions that they can take to protect the environment. Amongst other things, Jacob and I discussed the trials and tribulations of being a social media influencer, where to draw your line in the sand when it comes to collaborations, and the kinds of content that perform best on climate and environmental topics. So, let's get on with it. This is Communicating Climate Change with Jacob Simon. From your perspective, how can communication best contribute in humanity's response to the climate crisis?
Jacob Simon: I think that communication and education are a step that, no matter what, we can't solve this problem without. Just like you can't solve a math problem without first seeing and identifying what the problem is, and then understanding what it means, and then identifying ways to solve it and doing the work to actually solve it. So, from a purely logical standpoint, I feel that any crisis or problem needs education to be solved and communication to spread that. And the key point here is beyond just identifying the solution, we need to spread it to the masses and have people understand and agree. So, kind of going back to the math problem example, if you ask a room of 50 people to write down the answer to five times five, but none of them have heard of multiplication, or I have, but I don't tell anyone about it, we won't get very far. But just like we know multiplication and we can solve five times five, we also know what climate solutions are and how we can solve climate change. And most solutions aren't that complicated. You know, we stop burning fossil fuels, eat less meat, consider environmental impacts when we make decisions, and elect officials that actually care about the planet, and we're most of the way there. So, I guess a simpler way of putting it is that if you don't know, you can't act properly. But when you do know how to do things like identify greenwashing on product labels, you see, or you learn facts like 100 companies account for 70% of fossil fuel emissions, or you learn about policies like the Inflation Reduction Act in the United States that has such a positive impact on this effort, when you do understand these things, you can start to act accordingly. I think a great example is there's this study that I like to reference called “Social Tipping Dynamics for Stabilizing Earth's Climate by 2050”. It was published in 2020, and it essentially says that in order to stabilize our climate, we critically depend on contagious and fast-spreading technological and social change. And the technological change is clean energy and electrification of everything, and upgraded infrastructure, all sorts of climate solutions that are being made that make this transition possible. But then to have the contagious social change, we need to communicate that exceptionally well. And we need to communicate that we need to change in the first place, how we can change, and why making these changes is actually better for all of us and all life on Earth. And then I think we can get there.
Dickon: How would you characterise climate communications generally? In which contexts and through which channels do you typically tend to experience this kind of communication? And what kinds of approaches do you see being employed and used along the way?
Jacob Simon: There's different approaches in the sense of there's very, very technical language that is quite scientific. And then there's the other end of the spectrum, which is like individual sustainable kind of lifestyle, and then everything in between. You know, take a scientist, for example, take someone who is in the field, collecting this data, analysing it. Of course, they're gonna get more technical with their explanation, because it's what they experience every day. It's what they understand. And being in the thick of it for so long, it's harder to take a step back. And I think I walk a nice line between understanding a lot of the climate science, but I'm not a scientist, I don't have like a formal training in sustainability sciences. So what I've learned, I've done as courses and as an adult. I've done a lot of my own personal reading, or just research. And because of that, and because of like my communications background, I think I and many other creators do a great job of this as well… Yeah, we can walk the line between understanding the science, but then also understanding what just a normal person would be able to understand themselves. And it's not a scientist's job to communicate it, it's to do the science. And then it's other people's jobs, the communicators, to make people understand, what that science is. So yes, I definitely see some things that are more effective than others. But I can't blame anybody, especially if they're the ones actually coming out with this data. I'm not really expecting them to do the best job. And that's why climate communications and communicators are so important. I choose to primarily use social media to report my stories and do my climate communications, because it has unprecedented potential to reach so many people. I don't think, you know, never before in the history of the world, has it been possible to pick up my phone, talk for 30 seconds, and have 100,000 people see it for free. You know, I don't have to pay to get those eyeballs. It's just they care about what I have to say. And for that to happen once is unprecedented, let alone for that to happen, you know, every day. So I think if we need that contagious social understanding of climate and of what climate solutions are, we need people to see it. And I've been able to accomplish that through social media myself. However, not everybody's on social media or open to hearing about news or learning, you know, we're competing with prank videos and cute cats and dancing and all these other things. So it's not necessarily the best avenue for certain types of people, which is why written and audio mediums matter so much as well, too. Some people just like to read articles more. Some people like to listen to great podcasts like this one more, you know, it just depends on the person. And I also think perhaps most important out of all those is mouth-to-mouth. It's just talking to your friends and family and neighbours. And it's hearing something, internalising it, and then rehashing it for people that you know and care about personally. And we're a lot more likely to listen and care about and change if it's coming from somebody we know and trust. And I do think that you can achieve that kind of neighbourly effect through social media and through digital places, but it's harder. It takes a lot more time. You know, if you are literally someone's neighbour, you live right next to them, and you see them every time you walk through your door, then of course, you get that effect by default, whereas it takes many years and a lot of consistency to build that up in a digital way. So what I find is helpful is making things as simple and easily understandable as possible. I think that's my entire goal and what I do in my communications. And there's different methods to doing it depending on where you're at and where your audience is at. But I think that's key. You know, if we again need this social contagious change, then we need to people to understand what we're saying and not have to jump through a bunch of hoops to actually figure out the acronyms we're saying or understand the basics of science. Let's make this as simple as possible, hook people in, and then we can dive deeper.
Dickon: In contrast to the majority of communication about climate, your content focuses on positive climate news and stories of climate solutions at work. What led you to take this route?
Jacob Simon: It's an unconventional journey, and I'll give you the high-level take. So my whole life, I was actually a Team USA ice skater. I fell into the sport because my older siblings both did it. And my junior year of high school, so when I was 17, I made Team USA and I was sent internationally to compete in Grand Prix's. And I was like, this is incredible. I can't stop doing this. So I ended up moving to Colorado Springs to train at the Olympic Training Center when I graduated high school. And I was there for five years, traveling the world, competing, and skating was my entire life. And then I got injured. I dislocated my right shoulder. And I was a pair skater, so it was me and a partner. And with a dislocated shoulder, I was no longer able to lift my partner over my head or throw her around. So career over. And I was very lost. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I was taking classes part-time on the side at the University of Colorado. I finished school as fast as I could, majored in communications and media, and then I fell into a copywriting role at a PR agency in New York. After a few months, it was very clear that it wasn't for me. I liked the writing aspects. I liked the social media management, and it was creative, but I had no interest in making these giant companies richer. So I started freelancing on the side, imagining a world where I could pick and choose my own clients and do something I'm very passionate about. And as I was building up that kind of freelance portfolio and clientele, I also did some great traveling. And I saw these different ways of living. And I volunteered on some farms and learned about permaculture and composting. And I was like, the whole world should live this way. It's just a different relationship with the soil and with the earth that really resonated with me. So, I continued that rabbit hole down into some climate education, like I mentioned up front, I took some courses as an adult. And once I kind of dipped my toe into it, I was able to do a lot of things. And I was able to go into these waters. I couldn't go back. I was like, this is something that's extremely important. I love planet earth, and I want to do what I can to protect it. And I also want to lean into my strengths and what I study, which is communication. So how can I find the intersection of trying to stop climate change with communications and media? Through this freelancing lens, I was able to start writing for a bunch of environmental and climate companies and organisations. And then I also started making content. And one of the class projects I did was creating a newsletter where I curated all of the positive headlines I could find relating to the environment and sent it to my classmates. And me and my co-writer Anushka, we needed it for ourselves. We were quite down in the reality of kind of all this stuff we were learning, but there was also a lot of good stuff. We just weren't talking about it enough. So we sent it to our classmates. They really liked it and resonated with it. So it extended to friends and then family and then strangers. I figured with the explosion of short-form video that if people liked it in a written form, they would like it in a video form as well, if I could it figure out. So I started taking the same research and writing and then just making some videos on it and started being consistent, posting every day. Over time and a lot of hard work and refining and iteration, it started resonating with people. And over the past year, year and a half, it really has just blown up in popularity and become my full-time gig. I focused specifically on the positivity route because I needed it. I was very dedicated to working on climate solutions and I was still bogged down and so were my classmates. And I figured that if I, in my free time, am choosing to take these climate courses and I'm still having reservations, I couldn't imagine somebody kind of on the fence or who hadn't taken the leap into the climate movement yet. Why would they get involved if everything they're consuming is like, it's too late, we're doomed? And obviously that's not the case. You know, things can continue the way they are. They can get a lot worse. They can get a lot better, like no matter what, we're not doomed and we need everybody on board. So my hypothesis was that by focusing on the positivity and especially people and kind of leaders stepping up to do something in their communities, then people who see these videos and resonate with it can kind of step up and get involved with themselves. And that's what I continued trying to do today. I had some good media literacy from my communications and media studies, and understood things like the negativity bias, where it's literally better business for these legacy media publications to be negative. And it gets several percentage points more clicks if they include negative words in their headlines, which is very unfortunate. And it's not a true representation of the world. And I wanted to break through with this breath of fresh air and make people realise all the good that's happening as well.
Dickon: There's often quite a bit of guesswork to be done about why certain outreach efforts perform better than others, but on platforms like the ones where you're active, people are leaving plenty of comments. So, from this rich body of feedback data, what do you gather are the main reasons for your success?
Jacob Simon: The golden question! I think a lot of different things, definitely some luck. A lot of hard work. I think it's kind of similar to skating success where different athletes will have kind of advantages over others based on, you know, environmental and physiological differences. But the people that succeed and that are champions show up every day and they're consistent and they work hard and they're really passionate about it and they just continue to improve and kind of don't take failure as an option. And I kind of think that's that's how it works with building a social media audience as well it's it's just continuing to show up and iterate and listen to my audience's comments and experiment with different things. Owning my mistakes. Being a normal person. I think that the reason people resonate so much with creativity and creators over brands and organisations and publications is because I'm just a person i'm a regular guy who walks around in the street holds my phone and just talks about things as if I'm FaceTiming with a friend. And because I create videos in that way, I have an ability to be authentic and engaging, relatable. It's something anyone can do, but you have to be kind of authentic to what you care about, because if you're not passionate about it, and if it's not something that is true to you, then you won't be able to keep doing it long term. And there are certainly days where I wake up and I don't want to be on camera, and I have kind of set this like self-imposed goal to be posting every weekday, and I've missed a few weekdays… It's not the end of the world, as much as I thought it was the first time I missed a day, but I think that in the kind of low points of when I lack motivation, it's because I'm so passionate about this and I believe in the mission and I've done it so much that I'm still able to create and trust in the process and I'm like, “I know this works.” You know, right now in my head it looks stupid and it sounds stupid, and I don't think anyone's gonna like it, but I've done this a million times, so I'm gonna make it anyways. And I'll keep showing up. I'll keep you know fighting for our planet. And I think ultimately, it's that higher-level meaning and passion that's the only way I was able to succeed, and it's my kind of guiding force. And also, like I mentioned earlier, it's the hypothesis of battling the negativity with this breath of fresh air, and I really do believe in it. And I am reminded that it does work by my audience engagements and by the positive reception for a lot of pieces I make. An example is someone kept commenting on my videos, leaving me updates about… He was a student, and he was motivated by my videos to pitch his school to install solar panels on the roof. And there's another man who DM'd me and said that he switched his major into a conservation-type field because he was motivated by my videos. It's these things where I'm like, I'm not telling people to do this, you know? I'm showcasing the good environmental news, and I do provide a lot of call-to-action so I try and link where I can get people to do this. And I do provide ways to get involved with the stories I'm telling. But I've never told anyone to switch their major, and I've never told anyone to pitch their school to put solar panels on the roof. So when I hear stories like that, it really resonates with me because the domino or the snowball effect of what these videos can achieve is something that I won't know. You know, I'll only know bits and pieces of the of the stories that people tell me. And it's creating ripples that I think really can create a lasting impact. Beyond people, you know, giving me feedback on specifics related to my videos, you know, like I really liked this song choice or you were too loud in this one, like obviously things like that are technical changes that I can make. But yeah, definitely the hardest hitting ones for myself are seeing real-world examples of that ripple effect and how it can kind of uh show up in so many different ways.
Dickon: The flip side of that though of course is the presence of trolls haters etc., people or bots, potentially, flooding the comment sections with negative comments. I'm interested to know as someone who I assume you know is kind of a lightning rod for negativity on climate issues. What are some common myths or points of contention that are raised in opposition to your videos and how if at all do you deal with them?
Jacob Simon: You definitely need thick skin to be a content creator. Everyone's gonna get hate, everyone's gonna get trolls, and if you're not then you're probably not saying much of anything. No matter what take you have people will disagree with you. I'm actually really fortunate that because I put so much positivity out to the world in my videos, I get a lot of that back. Most of my videos, almost everyone gives positivity back to me, and I have a fantastic community who defend me as well. You know, if someone posts something, they'll get my back before I even see it. That just makes my day so much - I love it! However, there are different topics that get more backlash than others whenever I talk. About nuclear energy, there tends to be a lot of arguing both for and against it. Or if I mention a policy, there's often negativity around who passed it or other issues you know in that government or the geographical area if it's something local. But backlash can be a good thing a lot of the time. It gives me a chance to educate people further and have a discussion on my point of view and why I chose to include it as a good story, that's a different kind of area than trolling. Trolls on the other hand, they’re something different entirely and they're not worth engaging with. I usually just ignore them or I comment back, “LOL”. Like that because it is kind of funny a lot of the time what they say the joke's on them because if they're commenting something it's an engagement boost and it helps my content do better. So, if someone comments, “How do you sleep at night? You're a terrible person,” I'm not gonna get anywhere by engaging with them. But if someone comments something like, “I don't really agree with the second story you posted but the others were cool and I really like the first one,” then I can tell they're open to a conversation. I could say, “Well, I included this story because X, Y, and Z and here's why it's good, and here's why it's necessary to you know protect our planet,” and kind of go down that and what I've seen is, is those people they do care, you know they are consuming my videos to learn. They may not know everything and they can write in a respectful way. I definitely have to say that as a white man, it's an unfortunate fact that I automatically get so much less hate than my woman creator friends, and particularly women of colour. I do think that creators are a nice community that we uplift and support each other, and it's also part of our difference and helps us succeed, you know we really do want to see each other do well together. We're not, you know, super competitive like maybe legacy publications are because we don't have like a higher up to report to or we're not dependent so much on you know making stakeholders happy like we're just trying to educate people and help our planet so I think it helps having other people get my back as well. You know sometimes I engage and people are just not receptive to what I have to say and then that's that you know it's not worth anyone's time to continue down this rabbit hole if if neither side are gonna budge, but I do overall think because I put so much positivity out there, I get it back, and feel very blessed to have this community.
Dickon: Your videos are always easy to understand and you bring a friendly, welcoming demeanour every single time. But what role do you think simple language and a personal approach can play in how people experience information about climate change?
Jacob Simon: It's funny, every April Fool's Day, people are like, “You should just do the bad news today, you should be really mean and upset.” But I haven't done that yet, maybe in a future April. Yeah, I kind of have the mindset that if my mum doesn't understand my video then I've failed as a climate communicator. And I really do I read my script in my head, and I'm like, “If I was on the phone with my mum, would she understand what I'm saying?” And if I'm using certain terminology or abbreviations that she wouldn't understand, I change it. I think sometimes it's hard to do because if I've used you know an abbreviation so many times and it's very well understood in the climate community then it almost feels like I'm dumbing down the script, but I have to understand that the way social media works is the vast majority of people that see my content will not be following me, so I want those strangers to be able to understand what I'm saying when a first-time viewer comes across my videos. I don't want them to be turned off; I want them to understand and keep coming back, of course, so we can spread more positivity far and wide. So, the welcoming demeanor is just who I am - I'm always smiling. I'm a happy person. I think that's the authenticity of who I am as a person and my communication style, and I think that's also why I keep things casual. I'm just filming selfie-style. I don't do that many edits, mostly because I don't like editing so I figured if I just film my videos in one take then I won't have to do that many edits, and I film all my videos outside walking in the street because I like to be outside. And I knew that if I baked being outside into my content, I would force myself to get out of my room or office and walk around and get sunlight every day and that was the greatest decision for my mental health because a lot of creators, it's very solitary you know, we're alone filming in our room, and we might not see sunlight and I feel so much better when I get my blood flowing and I get that vitamin D, so I did that from the start and I don't have any intention of changing it.
Dickon: How can communicators balance? The need to keep people hopeful for the future, while also accepting the urgency and impact of climate change.
Jacob Simon: I'm no scientist, I listen to scientists and I understand when they tell me how dire and serious the situation is. And I read the stories, and I synthesise the data, and you know it's a crisis and there's no denying that. However, personally, I get paralysed with fear when I learn about how bad the situation is. Maybe some people will hear terminology that makes it sound like we're doomed and step up to act, protect their communities, and protect things that they know and love. I'm not that type of person. It feels like a mountain that's too high for me to climb. So for me what resonates is being a part of a community and hearing about wins and successes, and how achievable they are, and how local they are, and how they're led by human beings with interesting and unique stories. And the intersectionality of all of this. When I hear about that, I feel empowered. And I remember the first time this became really evident to me was when I went to a climate protest in New York City with, I don't even know how many tens of thousands of people, all around me. It was so fun and it was so motivating and gave me chills. And we were all marching and dancing and singing. And so passionate about ending fossil fuels. It was just such a different perception than what people may think protests are. And I felt that that was kind of a failure on the communication's front, we need to do a better job of explaining how compelling this side of things is. And how we can win this fight through positivity and optimism. And we have no choice but to be hopeful because we need to make the situation the best it can be because the planet and future generations depend on it. So, I'm not saying that everybody should take this positive, optimistic approach if it doesn't resonate with you then stick to the other stuff, there's a lot of great communicators that take very different approaches than me. But it's clear for myself and now that I've tested it and continue to do it, and people resonate with it for many other people as well, that we are compelled to take action when we hear that there's a chance of winning, and when we all do it together.
Dickon: From your huge array of posts which topics or stories have been the most engaging? What really seems to resonate with people with your audience?
Jacob Simon: Everyone and anyone resonates with animals coming back from near extinction. Stories like that that are very universal, issues that relate to someone personally, like their local city, or finding an intersection with other topics they like like sports or music, or something that’s very generally familiar, like a popular toy, such as Legos, being made from a more sustainable plastic alternative. Those are all reliably received well as well. As something very cool or bizarre or wonky. The world's most reflective paint or leather made from mushrooms. One of my most successful stories ever was about scientists scuba diving into dying coral reefs and playing recordings of the healthy snaps and cracks and groans of a healthy thriving coral reef, playing that just on Bluetooth speakers, and seeing animals come back and help bounce that reef back to life. And that’s a fantastic story because it has many different intersecting interests and it was also a nice visual and audio component to it to actually play those sounds and show a reef to my audience and it struck a chord with a lot of people. I do have to balance those stories with some things that are maybe not as generally received well, but very important. It goes without saying that policy is a very, very important through line and call to actions around voting, and electing proper officials, things that are more technical and boring, and data-driven, things that are really important and I want people to understand them and learn about them, and they're not being covered enough. Thankfully, I think I've done a good job of hooking them in with that coral reef, or animal, or sports, or music story, and then once they're like, “I'm watching this”, you know it's good news, “I'm feeling great,” then I can throw in this clean energy policy that was passed in the States or a country, you know, committing to phasing out coal, or something along those lines where people will agree it's a good story. It just may not have been as enticing of a hook as something that everyone can relate to.
Dickon: The next obvious question from my side is then, so how do you work to move people from passive scroller to active climate advocate? How do you bring them from that hook to potentially supporting that policy?
Jacob Simon: Yeah, that's my biggest struggle. That's kind of what keeps me up at night. That's what I'm trying to do and maximise and take these feelings of inspiration and motivation and convert it into action and people doing something. And I think the best way I've found so far is being that source of inspiration and relating to a real person's story. Because if you or I hear a story about someone that is similar to you or I doing something great, then we understand we can also. The barriers in our mind are a lot stronger than the actual barriers in the world. If you have a great idea, you can go and do it, and figure it out and there'll be people to help you along the way. And you can at least try. And if you don't pull it off, then try something else. It's not fair that it's up to the individual to take action. It's systematic problems that are causing this crisis and it's a systematic overhaul that we really need to solve it. But that's not going to happen unless the people are voicing how important that is. So I think what I'm able to do is talk about the importance of someone doing something by showing ways it has worked somewhere else. And if it worked for them, it will also work for you. And providing those actions in a consumable and easy-to-take way, you know, I've linked it for you, it'll take 30 seconds of your time, it will have a lasting impact - Talk about it, share it, and again, coming back to that ripple effect, where you may not see the immediate results, but they will be far-reaching.
Dickon: As an influencer with a significant reach and a climate-centric profile, I can only assume that you're a pretty hot ticket for potential brand collaborations. How do you approach this issue? Where do you draw the line? What would make you maybe consider a collaboration and what would totally turn you off?
Jacob Simon: Yeah. So collaborations is how I make most of my income. So it is super important for me to be a full-time creator. When an opportunity comes my way, I always discuss it with my wonderful manager, Kaylee. We talk through, if we think it's a good match, pros and cons. We do some research about the organisation. Ideally, it's something I would do for free. Most of the time, it's a story that if I had come across it on my own, I probably would have covered it for free. And that's a fantastic kind of point to be at. However, it's hard sometimes being like this, but this is my living. So I do need money for it. And it is a benefit to share these stories to my audience and get those eyeballs. So without a doubt, my favorite is always nonprofits generating attention for an initiative or trying to get people to understand what they're working on or get support. That's really cool. It's something I care a lot about. It's something I feel great promoting to my audience. It's the type of advertising that should exist in this world. A lot of other types of creators or influencers push products. And I've done that occasionally, but it's really not as authentic to who I am or what I care about, unless it's a really strong alignment. If it's something that I truly use every day and find a lot of benefit from, or it's a good alternative, then I'll consider it. More often, I'm trying to partner more on awareness or advocacy behind something or getting people to sign a petition and make real impact and change in the world. I've definitely made a mistake or two in the past and learned from it. I think that my audience trusts me and I built that trust by being authentic and by being a little bit choosy with the kind of things I promote. And the best thing is to be straight up and transparent. I'm not trying to trick anybody. If I'm doing a paid post, I write a paragraph in the caption every time explaining how it was approached, the information shared with me, that I'm getting paid for it. Why I felt it was a good match. Whether or not that's legally required, it's the right thing to do. And my audience deserves to understand that. There've been a few times where I've been approached by brands and, not to call anyone out, but I've just been like, “Hey, this sounds great. Can I hear about your sustainability plan?”, and get completely ghosted. And that is shocking to me. I'm like, come on, you've seen my content. I care about the planet to not even respond or have even a basic plan. It's kind of crazy in this 2024 environment. So I think that most of the approach I get is pretty aligned, which is fantastic, probably because of the types of collaborations I've done in the past. And obviously my content, it's kind of obvious. And we're also pitching out to other organisations I really care about and I want to see succeed. And I think there's a strong way we can work together if they're focused on climate positivity and stories that I think my audience would really like, I'll approach them and I'll pitch them on an idea. And I've been able to do a lot of great things that way. Of course there are other things that would totally turn me off. You know, like it goes without saying, but a fossil fuel brand, a fossil fuel company - I'm not, I'm not partnering with you. You know, it's not obvious alignment, until y'all start doing better.
Dickon: So, a lot of my listeners work at international organisations and non-profits. In these contexts, these big, kind of behemoth organisations, adopting new channels can often happen really at like a glacial pace. How important would you consider platforms like TikTok, for example, to be in the process of engaging younger audiences? And are there any signs of what's next?
Jacob Simon: Social media is a must. Social media is not all good, but it can't be ignored. It's the reach, potential, it's the education potential, especially for younger audiences, who are probably not reading your blog posts, definitely not reading your press releases. But if you make a video talking about that press release and making it more engaging, then, a lot more are likely to listen and the reach on social media is like nothing else. As well as the information you're able to convey, because it combines so many different mediums of audio, visual, and written into one. The community that you can cultivate, I mean, watch my videos, go to my platform, it's very clear that people are authentically engaging and and truly happy, inspired, and motivated by the things I'm posting, and are feeding that back into me. And I've started featuring community wins that people comment about things that they're doing themselves. And it's like that kind of engagement, there's no other way to get it. At least not that I know of. Maybe having face-to-face discussions with people, and unfortunately, you know, unless you're a hyper localised organisation, you want to reach more people than that. So social media is absolutely important and it doesn't have to be new information either. It can be, like I said, taking that press release or article and talking about it in a video form. That's what I did. I started writing this newsletter based on articles I read, and I took pretty much the same scripts. I adjusted it a little bit to sound better as I'm speaking it out and just walked around and talked about it. And it reached a whole new audience and so many more people as well. I can't say I know what's next. I'm sure there will be a next, and it probably won't be too far away. We move quickly these days. A couple of years ago, the number one thing on Instagram was static posts and then stories took over and then reels took over. And, you know, now they're really pumping out threads, which is the Twitter alternative. So I'm sure there will be something. I don't know what it is yet. And I think it is super important to evolve and adapt and be open to being on that new wave, because if you don't, you're left behind and you're giving up this free opportunity to accelerate your mission in such a strong and powerful way.
Dickon: Good advice. I guess the other thing to keep in mind is that opponents to climate action are sure as heck there.
Jacob Simon: They are, and they're loud. There's not that many people that are climate deniers anymore, but the few that are, are quite loud and they'll be screaming it, and yeah, if you're not there to combat that, then they'll start to win. Of course, there are so many - I think it's 92% of people acknowledge the climate crisis. So, we're the vast majority by, you know, a landslide. But it is still important that it continues to trend that way. And maybe people that don't have the same access to education that people in big cities do, or people that are, you know, studying climate, we need to reach the rural areas, we need to reach the poor areas that don't have access to this knowledge that we do and continue charging forward.
Dickon: What advice would you give to other people looking to leverage social media to amplify their work in and around climate?
Jacob Simon: You've got to be consistent. And that's not just me saying it, you know, that's from the mouths of Meta themselves, they will prioritise your content if you're posting more of it. Also, your audience wants to see you, you know, if they like you and resonate with what you're saying, they want more of you. So show up, be consistent, whether that's every day, every week, every month, whatever it is, you know, be on a schedule. I would highly encourage a few times a week, I think on social media, that's really important for growth. Another reason I succeeded is because I post pretty much every week. But I'm still authentic. I share my unique story in that. And I won't be able to get through to everybody the way that I talk and represent information, nor will you. But if we get many more people on board, we can reach everybody. And we can pull from our own unique experiences and have that touchpoint and intersection with so many different people. I think really, the only reason I made it to this point, and I'm kind of here talking to you today is because, I posted day after day, for weeks, months, and years, and slowly built up that trust and credibility, and got better with each video. I'm still not even close to perfect. And I think that's okay. It's an irrefutable fact that posted is better than perfect. Because if you take six months to make one perfect video, I could have posted, you know, 100 times in those six months and had so much more impact. So do your best post it and make the next video a little bit better. It's an ever-changing beast. Like we mentioned, platform changes make you required to change the way you're conveying information, even if you don't want to. So it's always iterative. And it's important to be open to changing, but at your core, staying true to your message and staying true to who you are as a person.
Dickon: What's the single most important aspect of communication that we should be paying attention to in our climate communication endeavors?
Jacob Simon: Yeah, that's quite a question. I think, probably lean into what you're already good about or care about or interested in and make climate the nexus point, meaning the interaction between those interests. Otherwise, you won't be able to continue long term. So if you care about basketball, talk about how climate's impacting basketball. If you're an artist, make climate art, you know, there's a million different things you can do. And you're more likely to reach people because now you're attracting the climate crowd, and you're attracting the basketball crowd. And you can expand into just general sports and other things. You know, everything's interconnected. The more I dive into this world, the more I realise how much it's all related. You know, it's kind of like ecology. If you tweak one thing over here, it has unintended consequences over there. You're able to do a better job at communicating things if you reach people where they're at. I think a fantastic example of this is by Dr. Katherine Hayhoe. She's probably the best science communicator in the world when it comes to climate. And she just talks all over the world about climate. But some places, she doesn't even say the word climate once, because she's talking to a bunch of rural farmers, who if you talk about climate change, they'll say, “I don't believe in that.” But if you say droughts and pesticides and chemical runoff and stuff like that, they'll be like, “Oh, yeah, I see that every day.” So it's talking about the same thing but it's meeting people where they aremin their language and their understanding and in their interests.
Dickon: Conversely, what's the biggest mistake that you see communicators make when attempting to engage the public on climate change issues?
Jacob Simon: I see a few mistakes. Can I cheat and say more than one? I think that, I mean, this won't be a surprise, but fear mongering is a mistake. You know, you want to be accurate, but not too scary. Because then, like I mentioned, people will not be compelled to act. I think internal fighting and arguing over what the single best solution is, or if oat milk is better than almond milk, it's like, that doesn't really matter, let's focus on the overarching issue, which is stopping fossil fuels any and every way possible. And this kind of goes back to the nuclear debate where people are very, very keen to argue about nuclear. And in the reality of the situation, it's like, any low or no emission energy source we need. So, nuclear is one of them. Yeah, it's expensive. Yeah, it's big. Yeah, it's ugly. But if we can get that and reduce fossil fuels, then it's a yes for me. Kind of in the same vein, pretending like we can be perfect environmentalists. Nobody's perfect. I think a lot of people early on in our journey were like, “I'm not going to use any single-use plastic,” and, “I'm, I'm not gonna have, you know, any emissions in my vehicles,” and all this stuff. And then reality hits you. And you're like, “wait, I live in the system that it's unavoidable.'“ And technically, it's possible, but the hoops you have to jump through would make your life such a living hell that it's it's not worth it. And that's not a truly sustainable path forward. Probably the last thing I'll say is not taking a break for mental health. You know, this is such an existential problem, that it can be very overwhelming. Even for someone like me, who focuses so much on positivity. And I'm not going to do a good job of communicating if I'm overwhelmed and stressed. And that's what I've had to come to terms with when I've missed a few days, like I mentioned, I was very nervous to skip, but I was so burnt out and I just didn't have time, and I knew I wouldn't have done a good job. So I took a few days for myself. And then I was able to jump back and do a great job when I came back to it. But if I kept pushing through, then who knows, maybe I would have burnt out for good and not continued. So it's actually a better strategy to take a step back and slow things down if you need to. Because then long-term, you'll continue. If you just push, push, push, and inundate yourself constantly, and don't take any time for yourself, then you're more likely to give up. And we can't afford that; we need everyone on deck, and we need to continue fighting. And you know, as long as I'm here, I'm not going to give up. And I hope it's the same case for all of you.
Dickon: It was a real pleasure to hang out with Jacob in digital space. But what in particular stuck with you from our conversation? What will you take from it and apply to your own work? For me, it was the appetite people seem to have for good news. This resonates with a bunch of other conversations I’ve had, for example with Thomas Coombes and Matt Scott. Conversations about the value of leading with solutions rather than problems, of showing people what they can do, and creating the conditions in which they feel truly empowered to emulate or innovate in their own particular contexts, and in their own particular ways. Another thing that stood out was Jacob’s journey to becoming an influencer. It was an outcome borne out of misfortune and a need to reorientate towards something else he was passionate about. I found that was pretty insightful. That could be any of us. We don’t need some special sauce to become the biggest influencer in our niche. We just need to be dedicated, consistent, and adaptive. Do you have a newsletter or a blog that you could reimagine as shortform video? Could you be the good news influencer that speakers of your native language have been waiting for? Why not? I can’t say that I haven’t been rethinking my approach as I sit and edit these episodes for hours on end. So who knows, maybe you’ll see some new formats coming out of the Communicating Climate Change stable one of these days... So, that’s what I’ll be taking with me. But how about you? What did you hear? What will you be incorporating into your communications endeavours? Thanks to Jacob Simon for sharing his time and positivity with the show. It was great. You can find links to some relevant resources in the show notes. Thanks also to you, for listening to Communicating Climate Change. If you enjoyed this episode, why not leave a rating or a review? Your feedback not only helps to shine a light on the guests and themes that resonate with you the most, but also boosts visibility, meaning the series reaches more people, expanding the community and driving the conversation forward. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts, or by subscribing so you never miss out. You can find Communicating Climate Change on LinkedIn too. And if you think the series would be of interest to friends or colleagues, why not point them in the right direction? Remember, each and every episode attempts to add to our toolkits. To help us develop the hope and the optimism that we’ll need for this intimidating task. So, be sure to stay tuned for more. For anything else, just head over to communicatingclimatechange.com. Until next time, take care.
